Forum:So what 'is' the current gun name status?

Forums: Index > Watercooler > So what 'is' the current gun name status?

Are we going to go IGN, or 'intended name'?

"Hi! Please stop redirecting to non-existent weapon names (FT 200M -> FN 2000, TRs 301 -> ZM LR300, etc.). Do not forget that we are documenting computer game, so everything that appeared in-game (as for characters, locations, etc.) must be documented from game perspective not real life. Although it is not bad idea to create redirects from real world gun articles (redirect FN 2000 to FT 200M article) and cover their resemblence in "Behind the Scenes" section of the article. Octurion 17:53, September 2, 2009 (UTC)"

This 'problem' has been around for almost a year, and has already claimed victims, so has it been dealt with or is that in the works?

Chikubi 11:51, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Real gun names in article titles, but in-game names for List of weapons and navboxes is the current solutions. Navboxes need updating, so that they link to the articles, not redirects, though. 150.254.212.166 11:59, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well here's how I see it: Now unless one can pool enough time to change everything back(Renaming articles, redirects and from pages) to IGNs, then we should use IGNs. However since the deed is already done(By that I mean it's standard that everything is named by their RL name) we could make it easier for the newcomers and us by changing the weapon/faction template's weapon names to their IGN to make it easier to brows.

The List of weapons page, which has everything listed in the weapon's in-game name, is present in the front page, inside a browsing template with an icon/name to make it more obvious. If someone wants to search their weapon inquiry, all they have to do is click their desired hyperlink. And also, all weapons have their IGN redirect, so if someone searches for the IL 86, AKM 74/2 or TRs 301 it'll redirect to the Enfield L85A2, AKS-74] and Z-M LR-300 respectively.
SHIELD unit 12:03, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Now unless one can pool enough time to change everything back(Renaming articles, redirects and from pages) Could you bulletpoint what has to be done and post it? I'll do it in one big block like here so that there isn't a 50/50 transition period in between. (if noone gets it done by then)
And 150.254.212.166 get a username, or at least something like [[Zorro]] ~~~~~ --> Zorro 12:24, July 19, 2010 (UTC), your edits deserve to be credited

Chikubi 12:28, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

150.something is actually me, the damn work computer keeps logging me out. Anywhoo, bulletpoint time:

Update links in navboxes, so that they point to their articles, rather than redirects (real gun names I believe)
Create redirects for every fictional name in the games
Rewrite the list of weapons to include both fictional and real names side by side and the weapon's icon.
If possible, update the text of the articles. This is of least concern, we can edit as we go.

That's all for now. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 13:13, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Now unless one can pool enough time to change everything back(Renaming articles, redirects and from pages) Could you bulletpoint what has to be done and post it?

Revert every weapon to it's IGN
Fix and standardize tempaltes
Identify every redirect to weapons and fix them so they don't end up as doubles
Go to every article that lists weapons(Faction pages, character pages...etc) and standardize each one.

SHIELD unit 11:07, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Many other wikias use the actual weapon name. Since both link to the same page I guess it's fine, no need to change it really in my opinion. Boredgunner 01:21, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

I believe that, as a resource for the STALKER games, we should be as correct as possible. We should exclude personal convictions when editing and look at facts. And in this case, fact is, the guns in the game are real-world weapons (bar the Gauss gun), but simply renamed.

If you recall early previews and early version of the STALKER game site, all the weapons were referred to by their real-life weapon names, most notably the LR-300 and the OTs-14 Groza. The LR-300 in practically unchanged form has been present in the game since the very first available STALKER build, 1154. The texture features the manufacturer's name and weapon designation.

The only game in which the weapon name (and indeed, weapon names for all other guns) does not appear is Shadow of Chernobyl, where they were edited out. However, in all other builds and Clear Sky and Call of Pripyat, the weapons have their correct names.

This, without a shred of doubt, proves that the developers want the weapons in the game to be real-life weapons. Not firearms inspired by real guns, but actual, real life pistols, shotguns, rifles and grenade launchers. Why do they have different names? Simple: copyright issues THQ doesn't want problems from guns manufacturers, so they had GSC remove them from SHOC. However, the inclusion of real textures in CS and CoP as well as internal file names and variables shows that the devs want the weapons to be as close to real-life ones as possible.

And since I believe that we should be as correct as possible, we should reflect this sentiment and have weapons called by their real world names, with an appropriate notice of how they are called in the game. And set up redirects, so that if someone looks for an IL 86, he'll be directed to the Enfield L85A2 page, which will also mention how the game calls it.

Is it an imperfect solution? Yes, it is. However, it's the closest one to facts. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 06:40, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: See Template:COPweapons for a way to avoid player confusion no matter which policy we use. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 09:04, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

I like what you did with the template, this should be added along with the SoC and CS templates. Also for standardization, should we all consider also changing the names on the faction templates or just leave it as it is?
SHIELD unit 14:18, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Awesome job on the Template:COPweapons, I really like it.
What the developers wanted isn't really up to us to guess, we're just here to make a wikia page, and IT should be as accurate as possible. The guns are named thus in games, if you're going to make a page about a gun in a game, you use that gun's name. It is my intention to rename links to TOZ-66 and TOZ-34 on the entire wiki, and the only places where these two names belong (and therefore others like them) is in a very small sentence under the IGN title, once. You're saying its counter productive to return to IGN, I disagree, it was counter-productive to head that way in the first place.
I'm not for removing every mention of real-gun influence, but it's like making a wiki page for someone named Ivan in english, saying 'What the parents really intended to do was call him John, but they couldn't due to social influence', and then using that statement to name the article John. Ivan's name is Ivan, stop trying to rename him/her/it.
"However, in all other builds and Clear Sky and Call of Pripyat, the weapons have their correct names." If you just take a look at your own lovely template, you'll see that those 'correct' names don't correspond with their article names. If this was a modding wiki, then texture titles and whatnot would have a leg to stand on, this isn't a modding wiki, this is about the vanilla game, so they dont.
Why on earth are you making IGN templates if you're so sure of your position?
The concensus seems to be, "IGN's are the right way to go, but I'm not willing to change em." Now, I'm willing to put the work in and return articles and links to their IGNs by following Shield's checklist, I'm not asking you to get involved in that if you (Mikael,) resent the action, but it's going to have to be done eventually.
Chikubi_talk^contrib 18:19, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Chik, you just ignored my entire argument. Fact is, the guns in the games are meant to represent their real-life equivalents, everything points to that, bar the fictional names. What's more, the problem with fictional names is that SHOC and CS/COP have different fictional names in them. What now, which name to choose? If we stick with the real guns approach, the problem dissapears, as e.g. both AC/96 and Obokan link to AN-94 Abakan and there's no problem.

I do not understand your texture argument, though. Textures in VANILLA CS/COP have real-life gun names on them. It's not a question of modding, as they are there in the vanilla game and anyone can see them. Even the internal variables use real weapon names, not fictional.

And your Ivan/John analogy is completely unrelated. Now, if it was "Everything Ivan has bears his name, Ivan, but his parents insist on calling him John" that'd be applicable.

Last, no, it doesn't have to be done, mostly because there's no point in doing that. Most of the wiki uses real-life names. Plus, a consensus has to be reached and so far there's been none. You can't arbitrarily pick SHIELD's checklist over mine and start working just because you feel IGN names are better.

_Tagaziel ^(call!) 19:30, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Now, as a pure gamer, who cares not at all about real life weapons, this is my opinion.

I want to use a STALKER-wiki to help me understand the game, the background to the game, the details in the games plot, help to play the game and what selections are smart/stupid to do in the game.

Here is an example how this wiki makes it harder than it should be to use:

I play Call Of Pripyat and finds a gun called 'IL 86'. I go to this wiki to find out if it's a good weapon or if there is anything better perhaps. So I click on weapons->Call of pripyat and end up on a page where there is no 'IL 86' to be found???

Ok, this is totally confusing for the end user. But I go through the weaponlist and find the one that fits, Enfield L85A2 (really? I mean really? There is an L and an 8 in there but otherwise it's not even close to IL 86). Now I see that 'The L85A1 is slightly less accurate than other assault rifles like the ZM LR300 and SIG SG-550)'. And again, this doesn't help me as a gamer since I have to click through both of these links to get the in game names (the ONLY name any gamer sees) and get any use of the information.

I don't mind there being talk about the real life weapons in the wiki, that goes with my wish that the wiki should give 'background to the game', but it should be secondary info! 93.182.188.26 12:32, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Is it that hard to use Template:COPweapons? It's posted on every Call of Pripyat weapon page and the weapon category page. It even includes little images to make browsing easier.

_Tagaziel ^(call!) 13:52, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what i've been saying, 93.182.188.26! Feel free to voice your opinion further on how inappropriate it is to use real gun names instead of the more accurate in-game names for article titles and bodies. In fact you can help with the upcoming conversion to IGN names! Also, would you care to register a username so that we could link a name to a statement? :) Thanks, for contributing,
P.S. To whom it may concern, I haven't actually said anything to anyone outside this page regarding the issue, so this isn't one of my minions. :P
Chikubi_talk^contrib 14:54, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sure. I've been thinking on it and I guess he's right. However, I have my own thoughts on the subject. More later.

_Tagaziel ^(call!) 17:36, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

So, moving on, anon's post made me change my mind (not entirely). For ease of navigation I can agree that we move the articles to their in-game titles and standardize articles like in this example. Removing all references to real weapons would be a waste of time and an insult to everyone who worked on the articles so far, so I believe an acceptable compromise is this:

1. move all weapons to their in-game names,

2. adjust the articles so that the intro sentences include both real life and bolded in-game names (as per the example linked above),

3. adjust the articles so that the Appearances section includes in game names and real life names (the latter in parentheses),

4. character and overview articles are of least concern, as they don't have any immediate gameplay impact,

5. the wiki needs to reflect both real gun names and in-game names (on filefront.com the real gun names mods alone have over 25,000 downloads and that doesn't count downloads on external sites, passed between players and those that make them themselves, e.g. me),

I believe that is an acceptable and reasonable compromise that protects the interests of both RGN and IGN parties.

_Tagaziel ^(call!) 07:54, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

I still don't understand why there's need to include RW info into the main article body (that deals with in-game content, so it's out of context and well suitable for 'Behind the Scenes' where the RGN should be mentioned, maybe some RW history, differences between the game's portrayal of the weapon in relation to the RW gun and so on...), but at least we have reached some compromise. Octurion 14:46, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Included because it doesn't hurt anyone to have a background section and the gamers might learn a thing or two. I love them, in particular because I finally know what's the name of that damn truck I keep seeing in CS.

_Tagaziel ^(call!) 15:36, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Heya, sorry for the latent response, I've been very busy.
I'm very happy that we've reached this milestone. Regarding your post, it's possible that I may have omitted my opinion regarding the presence of real gun info throughout the discussion, so I'd like to state that I fully support each gun article containing information regarding the real weapon it represents. After all, each of these weapons were used in the making of the game because of their real-life properties.

Obviously i agree with this whole-heartedly.
Agree
Disagree.
The appearances sections should refer to guns' IGN names only as well as using the appropriate IGN name per game, i.e. soc section would refer to the gun as obokan, while the cs section would have AC96/2. This will ensure that the article section is relevant to readers who are interested in either game. Layout-wise, i think the AC96/2 is the right way to go about it, however, the opening sentences should be reworked to sound less forced. and the usage of IGN should be throughout.
I'm not sure what you mean, but I think that the RL gun info should either be contained at the top (overview) or the bottom (behind the scenes) of the article, I'm quite happy with either, as long as when it comes to description outside the RL gun section, the game (or fictional) names are used.
Completely agree that the wikia should contain a reference to the RL guns, but just as a side point, considering Stalker series has sold over 4 million copies, 25000 is 0.6%, which isn't a particularly significant amount. Even after bumping them up an order of magnitude to 6% (for generosity), the RLGN fans are quite a minority.

After addressing that, I'd like to move on to discussing the complications of choosing exactly which IGN group should be used for article titles,there are two to choose from, the SOC and the CS/COP groups and I feel the the group spanning two games would be the more accurate one to use. What do you folks think?
Thanks for reading,
Chikubi_talk^contrib 00:29, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

BTW, we should probably also change the weapon names on faction templates.
SHIELD unit 06:07, September 11, 2010 (UTC)